What to do, what to do...

[pirateship]

Foiled,

while I understand from your replies to some old posts that you do not particularly like me (I understand - I don't particularly like me either), I just wanted to point out that probably part of your reluctance in talking to Ceasar about his behavior depends on not wanting to hear the answers, as someone else pointed out. I don't know the guy at all, but it seems that there is some sort of passive-aggressiveness at work here, he has a way of hanging on to the power you mention by denying you his body. The fact that power dynamics appear to be so important in your relationship is, as far as I can see, not good. Relationships should be about mutual giving and support, if inevitably flawed. But if at their core they are about power, it is a short way indeed from finding yourself on the set of Bitter Moon.

What Pac said about hanging on to the devil you know is also a very good point, and I also second AirMale's very insightful post. Those who tell you to move on might not be completely aware of how hard it is, especially after you've been together so long. But from the tone of your posts and the recent change thereof, I guess that if you actually had The Conversation and got a flat out rejection from him you'd be really ready to get started with someone else. Still, don't forget to let him know everything you think of him and his behavior after he rejects you, otherwise this is going to torture you for ages.

Just my $0.02, YMMV and all.

[Tank Girl]

I guess that if you actually had The Conversation and got a flat out rejection from him you'd be really ready to get started with someone else.

Yes, I had the same exact thought. The Conversation is a necessary evil. Though I hope Caesar will be able to give her some insight into his weird foibles.

Still, don't forget to let him know everything you think of him and his behavior after he rejects you, otherwise this is going to torture you for ages.

LOL!!! Speaking from experience there, SPS?

[vabrown]

I think I see the power element you speak of but I have to tell you that its still not YOU that I see holding the power.Even though youve definatly made a lot of strides and gotten a lot more things on your terms [IE your changes when you moved, refusing to jump at the drop of a hat whenever hes ready -and I applaud you for that]
It still seems as though its all based on HIS terms, the activity, his marriage, his privacy. I know you mentioned simmilarities to this relationship and your previous where you felt you weilded great power and advantage, and maybe in those relationships you did -some need to both punish each other maybe?
In this situation due to either how you feel about him or how you feel about yourself you dont even feel comfortable asking him the question not the question of "hey why havent we fucked in 25 years? anfd now not the question of "do you have some sort of pussy aversion?"
I hope you find a way to ask either yourself or him the hard questions, and make YOU happy-whether thats with him or without him.

[pirateship]

Sorry for the brief tj, I have to reply to TG:

LOL!!! Speaking from experience there, SPS?

Haha, you are my historical memory, first the condoms and then this.

Actually, I was too chicken to have The Conversation, except for once when I totally didn't believe what I was saying (unbeknownst to me, but clearly visible to him). I actually never asked "Why is that you don't fuck me?", and would not in a thousand years. Pretty much as I am not initiating another Very Important Conversation now, about "Why the heck do you feel the need to talk to me twice per week?", again because I am too chicken. So yes it's experience but not the good type of experience.

[Tank Girl]

Actually, I was too chicken to have The Conversation, except for once when I totally didn't believe what I was saying (unbeknownst to me, but clearly visible to him). I actually never asked "Why is that you don't fuck me?", and would not in a thousand years. Pretty much as I am not initiating another Very Important Conversation now, about "Why the heck do you feel the need to talk to me twice per week?", again because I am too chicken. So yes it's experience but not the good type of experience.

Also sorry for the tj....

SPS, if he is still talking to you twice a week, he might be playing Jedi mind tricks on you to keep you from finding your New Guy. I understand your reluctance to ask him difficult questions that might drive him away. I know how both you & Foiled can put off having that "why won't you/didn't you fuck me" conversation -- I had an FwB in my late teens/early 20s who never kissed me. If such a thing were to start now, he wouldn't make it to the second rendezvous. But if, say, he & I had continued what we had up until now, I can see myself being unwilling to bring it up. I was too chicken to bring it up back then, too. I told myself it didn't bother me....BUT right after he & I sort of petered out, he hooked up with a friend of mine who was married, and she told me he kissed her all the time! I was very hurt by that! :/ Angst!

[Lyonessa]

Thank you, AirMale, for pointing Foiled in this direction, and Foiled, bravo for not backing away from your motivations w/Caesar and really seeing the relationship in the light of day. Yes, the whole power play you two have must be incredibly addicting, but it's not healthy either. I wish you strength in finally ending it. As others have said, you will never be able to move on to a good solid healthy relationship until you crush the demons. I really really just want to see you as fulfilled in this area of your life as you are in other parts of your life. You're an awesome woman, you know you are.

The issue is wanting HIM. Validation from HIM, I guess. Screw that, the real issue is ME. Yeah, he has major issues, he'd never find another person on earth that would put up with this, so in that way, I have power over him. I am special. I understand and accept him. ONLY I will ever understand and accept him and he gets much pleasure from our dealings. And I like power...it's why I was attracted to substance abusers. I got my power because their issues put them at a disadvantage, they got the roof over their head and Budweiser paid for. Win/win. Until I got tired of propping them up and wanted a new project.

Huh. Is Caesar a project? The most challenging, interesting project I've ever had? One I can't get tired of propping up until I completely get inside and get him to put his spleen on the table and beg? This is why I find the cuddle thing interesting...is this a sign of weakness, a cosmic shift in the power? Or is it a game to try to hang on...he's smarter than the others and understands how to play games, but I find a way to counter. Right now I'm countering his cuddle requests with apathy, which is making him clingy and unhappy, which is satisfying because it displays weakness for me and feeds my need for power. And because I have endured deprivation to deal with his issues, I don't mind making him unhappy. I accept him on the surface and fawn over him in superficial ways to feed his ego, but fuck with him in other ways and keep him off balance and worried his outlet will disappear. Tit, tat, tit, tat. On and on it goes. For 25 years.

Your post was really kind of jolting to me. I got hooked up with the drunks and recognized the co-dependency issue I was engaging in. I swore off the substance abusers, but didn't recognize that there are many forms of addiction and many ways to stay engaged in co-dependent behavior. He has a problem, I have power over him due to the problem. Co-dependent. Not healthy. Not good. Him not good for me because it keeps me mired in my old ways and prevents me from dealing in R's that have healthy, balanced dynamics. I never thought of him through the lense of co-dependancy before, but it all sounds very fucked up when I look at it that way. And I feel bad for doing this with/to him. He looked unwell the other day...I'm worried about him. The shitty M is sucking the life out of him and I am a crutch that enables him to endure. The good news for him is that he was smart enough to keep me at arm's length and not let me get too close. Unlike the others. Smart man. About to be a man without an EMR partner. I want off the crazy train. Not him being the cause of the crazy train. ME, same old shit crazy train. I thought I did it, but I'm not there yet. He is the last tie to the old way. For my sake and his, this should end.

[foiled_again]

Thank you, AirMale, for pointing Foiled in this direction, and Foiled, bravo for not backing away from your motivations w/Caesar and really seeing the relationship in the light of day. Yes, the whole power play you two have must be incredibly addicting, but it's not healthy either. I wish you strength in finally ending it. As others have said, you will never be able to move on to a good solid healthy relationship until you crush the demons. I really really just want to see you as fulfilled in this area of your life as you are in other parts of your life. You're an awesome woman, you know you are.

It is addictive. And probably unhealthy. OTOH, it's best if the unhealthy types stick together so they aren't inflicting themselves on unsuspecting healthy people. lol

[Hunter]

Wow!

This is the first time I have become aware of the fact Caesar doesn't touch your pussy (properly). I knew he didn't fuck, but never did I imagine that he didn't touch you (through clothes doesn't really count except as part of early foreplay, IMO). This guy has some serious issues and you are validating them, which may be fine with you, except I think it could have serious repercussions for your emotional and mental health.

IMO, most guys, if caressing you through your skirt and suddenly finding their fingers in the secret garden... they'd get that rush that us men get, the one that makes us want to take you right then and there... without another seconds hesitation. Its a rush thats difficult to suppress sometimes.

Foiled, I have seen your posting style change over the last year. I assume you are tired of feeling like a play toy specifically for his silly peccadilloes and frankly your post in this thread makes me think that, at last, you see this mans behaviour is actually harming you (no matter how much front you put up, it is harming you IMO).

So, get with this southern guy. You are both single, your companies are not going to care if the businesses aren't affected. I think (and this is speculation based on my experience with people - and women in general) you really want to be validated as a real women... one who has wants to valued, desired and loved like a woman should and not just as an outlet for someones peculiar need.

Mind you I gather Caesar gives you something you need in other ways, but I am sure he is ever conscious losing you will mean he loses his ability to exercise his quirk. Very few would tolerate it unless they had very low self esteem or his 'pussy squick' reinforced some negativity in a co-dependent way (imagine a woman who already thought 'my pussy is awful' and then think how Caesar's squick would fit in with that)

I reckon, once you get laid properly Caesar will be gone from your thoughts and feelings as the rush of "WTF have I been doing all these years" catches up with you - you may even feel hostile toward him.

Is this part of your reluctance - guessing/knowing what will happen once you have someone unleash the pent up positive physiological and psychologcal feelings that Caesar has forced you to cap off? Perhaps, even if there is no ongoing romance with this southern guy, the spell of Caesar will be shattered and you will be unable to go back to finding any form of satisfaction from his limited offerings.

As for the cuddling Caesar... after 25(?) years he only now starts to enjoy this aspect of time with you? Run south and run quickly.
.

Holy shit, this is mind-blowingly great! I am speechless.

[Lyonessa]

It is addictive. And probably unhealthy. OTOH, it's best if the unhealthy types stick together so they aren't inflicting themselves on unsuspecting healthy people. lol

LOL! You have a point there. So I guess it's just a matter of if and when you wish to get healthier.

[AirMale]

Holy shit, this is mind-blowingly great! I am speechless.

Aw gee, thanks. But really its foiled's self analysis that deserves kudos.
.

[KeyPounder]

My guess is that the power play thing is going on, but also that he is trying to avoid picking up any pussy aromas when you two get together. I've only had a guy refuse to touch my genitalia once, and that was because we were having a rather rushed encounter in a parking garage and there was no way he could clean up before he had to go to a meeting.

This guy had a beard then ... when we had a shower available he was extremely enthusiastic about oral sex, but this one meet, he wouldn't touch me at all. I was supposed to take care of him ... when he made that comment about not wanting to go to his meeting smelling like pussy, I backed off and just shut down. My feeling was -- no cookies for you if there aren't going to be any for me.

After 25 years, he's gotten into a habit, especially since
1) You have put up with it for so long, and
2) You never talk about it or indicate that it's not working for you.

Even on this occasion, rather than say, "Hey wait, should I put something on that burn you got because you touched me?" you avoided the issue by directing your attention to HIS needs, and abandoning yours.

That said, I'm not sure Mr. Down South is the right guy even though he's paying you some attention right now. There's the work thing, and you don't sound all that enthralled with his behavior. He might be a fun ride for a little while, but he doesn't sound like a good bet to me. At least not for you.

[foiled_again]

Foiled,

while I understand from your replies to some old posts that you do not particularly like me (I understand - I don't particularly like me either), I just wanted to point out that probably part of your reluctance in talking to Ceasar about his behavior depends on not wanting to hear the answers, as someone else pointed out. I don't know the guy at all, but it seems that there is some sort of passive-aggressiveness at work here, he has a way of hanging on to the power you mention by denying you his body. The fact that power dynamics appear to be so important in your relationship is, as far as I can see, not good. Relationships should be about mutual giving and support, if inevitably flawed. But if at their core they are about power, it is a short way indeed from finding yourself on the set of Bitter Moon

Not sure why you think I don't like you. I don't do hearts and flowers and tend to cut to the chase in my posts. No indication that I do or don't like someone there

All R's have a power dynamic. Most sexual problems in M's are due to power imbalances or assertion, even. Someone's in charge, usually...does the bill paying, plans the social calendar, etc. I am keenly in tune with the power dynamic because I like to have that control. He's kept me fascinated by depriving me of that in some ways, but ceding it in others. It is, actually, quite balanced...weird and abnormal, maybe, but balanced..and also an eternal power struggle because it IS balanced overall. We do things on his terms and I've learned to enjoy myself within those parameters, but I can (and have several times) abandon him and leave him with nothing. What good is having all the rules he has if he can't get anyone to play? I'm all he's got in that regard. I've been pushing on him the last year or so for changes, warning him I have no reserves for more bs with him, and he's responded every time with what I want. I will have to address the issue mentioned here. It will push us to a new level of understanding and perhaps, activity, or it will kill us. I'm not the loser in either outcome.

If not for the longevity of our R, I would not bother. I struggle with how much effort to expend on him because he's M'd and my view, overall, of EMR's is they need to be pretty easy and simple or fahgetaboutit. He's significant to me, though, so worth some effort. I think I've about hit the wall with it, though...less patience, less inclination to be accomodating, etc. There was a time when NO was not a part of my vocabulary when it comes to him. You should have seen my stuff when I first started posting.

[foiled_again]

My guess is that the power play thing is going on, but also that he is trying to avoid picking up any pussy aromas when you two get together. I've only had a guy refuse to touch my genitalia once, and that was because we were having a rather rushed encounter in a parking garage and there was no way he could clean up before he had to go to a meeting.

This guy had a beard then ... when we had a shower available he was extremely enthusiastic about oral sex, but this one meet, he wouldn't touch me at all. I was supposed to take care of him ... when he made that comment about not wanting to go to his meeting smelling like pussy, I backed off and just shut down. My feeling was -- no cookies for you if there aren't going to be any for me.

After 25 years, he's gotten into a habit, especially since
1) You have put up with it for so long, and
2) You never talk about it or indicate that it's not working for you.

Even on this occasion, rather than say, "Hey wait, should I put something on that burn you got because you touched me?" you avoided the issue by directing your attention to HIS needs, and abandoning yours.

That said, I'm not sure Mr. Down South is the right guy even though he's paying you some attention right now. There's the work thing, and you don't sound all that enthralled with his behavior. He might be a fun ride for a little while, but he doesn't sound like a good bet to me. At least not for you.

Yes, there is usually a rush in play and usually I see him when he's on his way home. I think it's a deeper issue with him...a real aversion. He was like this when I first met him and he had no W to worry about. The activity we have is very enjoyable, I've gotten used to it and I don't think much about what we don't do...it's just that this time the aversion was so in my face I couldn't ignore it and it jolted me out of my cloud. And you're right, I should have said something. We do all our difficult communicating via email...we've had our arguments that way, resolved them that way, etc. Our f2f time is strictly physical, and lately, if in my bed, physical and then resting together in peace and silence. I'll have to address this with him as there will be no point in seeing him otherwise as I won't be able to enjoy it. So I really have no choice.

I do worry about work implications of the southerner situation. And he's a bit rough around the edges to suit me as a LT prospect. But as a ONS type thing, that might be nice. Although I then have to deal with him every day. And if it goes bad, then what? Yeah, probably not a good idea. I don't like to mix my work and personal situations.

[foiled_again]

It is addictive. And probably unhealthy. OTOH, it's best if the unhealthy types stick together so they aren't inflicting themselves on unsuspecting healthy people. lol

LOL! You have a point there. So I guess it's just a matter of if and when you wish to get healthier.

Kidding aside, that is the six million dollar question. How do you rewire your personality in your mid-40's? Is there time to do it and reap the benefits? And then I think...do I even want to? How do we define 'healthy"? My thought is anything that makes both parties happy is healthy. Two people engaged in an abnormal situation who are happy with it, I define as healthy. Maybe not in a clinical sense, but my view is the only thing that matters is what the two people are experiencing, not what the rest of the world thinks of it.

Sometimes I'm happy with this, sometimes not so much. He's pretty happy with it unless I get uppity on him. And overall I think our R is bad for him because it enables him to remain in that shitty M that's literally sucking the life out of him. If I ended this, his misery would not be offset by these momentary snippets of bliss and it might push him over the edge to do something about it. I dunno...so much to mull.

[Jaxom]

Foiled, I knew that Caesar was breast-focused, but I too had no idea he actually avoided your nethers. I'm not going to try and get inside his head or yours. I'll just say GET THE HELL OUT! You need what you need, and you aren't getting it for 25 years now? And you've been bending over backwards worried about how to fit this freak into your life to the extent that you were actually pondering him as a factor in where you would move? Recent cuddling talk aside, this guy uses you as a specialized sex doll. This sounds to me like what Spare Change has with her MM.

You're a successful woman with a healthy sex drive, and large breasts to boot. You have many options. Go find them. Leave Caesar to figure out how to deal with his problem on his own.

[whyaskwhy]

I also didn't realize he avoided your lady garden entirely either. I mean I knew you two didn't fuck, but I'm kind of blown away by this revelation. Honestly, I could probably be okay with your arrangement if he weren't my only. The friendship and emotional intimacy, not to mention history, you have with him could make up for the lack of the other, if the other was coming from someone else. And actually, that sounds kinda like a few marriages around here, doesn't it?

[dreamgirl]

Maybe I'm no one to talk since my H is apparently adverse to me and I've had my share of issues with Mr. Smooth as well...but my heart goes out to you. You deserve so much better than that. If you don't want to end things with him, then don't. No reason you still can't go have fun with Mr. Hot Tub!! Maybe it will put things into perspective.

You have a 25 yr. emotional attachment to Ceasar. That is hard to get rid of, but it doesn't mean that you should have to sit back and put up with the lack of sexual pleasure from him. You are a single woman and free to get it elsewhere too!! He really can't say anything since he is married and won't go there with you.

I would still bring it up to him, probably in email or something since I would be all over the place/emotional trying to discuss something like that in person. See what he says. If you have slept with someone else recently it may help you to deal with whatever his comments are better too.

[foiled_again]

You have a 25 yr. emotional attachment to Ceasar. That is hard to get rid of, but it doesn't mean that you should have to sit back and put up with the lack of sexual pleasure from him. You are a single woman and free to get it elsewhere too!! He really can't say anything since he is married and won't go there with you.

I would still bring it up to him, probably in email or something since I would be all over the place/emotional trying to discuss something like that in person. See what he says. If you have slept with someone else recently it may help you to deal with whatever his comments are better too.

There is not a lack of sexual pleasure from him at all...quite the opposite actually. I've always been accepting of his limits because I don't believe they are about me. After the other day, I have to know that for sure, is all. I'm not big on sleeping around so supplementing him is hard. If I want more, he needs to go or no one else will work for me.

[foiled_again]

Foiled, I knew that Caesar was breast-focused, but I too had no idea he actually avoided your nethers. I'm not going to try and get inside his head or yours. I'll just say GET THE HELL OUT! You need what you need, and you aren't getting it for 25 years now? And you've been bending over backwards worried about how to fit this freak into your life to the extent that you were actually pondering him as a factor in where you would move? Recent cuddling talk aside, this guy uses you as a specialized sex doll. This sounds to me like what Spare Change has with her MM.

You're a successful woman with a healthy sex drive, and large breasts to boot. You have many options. Go find them. Leave Caesar to figure out how to deal with his problem on his own.

Please do not refer to him as a freak.

[Jaxom]

I do apologize for using that unfortunate term. I was overwhelmed at how long you have been contorting your life to accomodate his fetish and at how it made you come to doubt yourself.

[foiled_again]

I do apologize for using that unfortunate term. I was overwhelmed at how long you have been contorting your life to accomodate his fetish and at how it made you come to doubt yourself.

Thanks for the apology, Jaxom.